MLP FiM demonstrates philosophical ideas of the perfect utopian society.

[Pinkie]

I am writing a paper on Friendship is Magic, making a comparison to ancient philosophies and psychology, analyzing their relationships, lifestyle, and ideals. I would like to hear your input. Please tell me if you do not want your response published in my essay.

the thesis is:
My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic demonstrates philosophical ideas of the perfect Utopian society.

I'd like to hear your opinions of why you agree or disagree.

 

[dragonkiss207]

I have to disagree. While the show definitely promotes and teaches people morals and lessons about friendship, their society does face challenges that seem to reoccur in episodes. First thing to keep in mind is that the set up of their society is a monarchy, which history has shown to be problematic and not socially equal. There are different classes of social status, which has been shown in episodes to be discriminatory in some of the ponies' eyes. The different types of ponies gives them all different roles in their society but it also sets them all apart and there is some discrimination on who has magic and who can fly. While their cutiemark talents make each pony special, it also gives them a reason for jealousy, especially when some ponies get their cutiemarks early and other are late bloomers. There is also no guarantee that a pony will keep their property as Applejack's family was almost bought out for their slower cider production and lack of "technology/magic." The market that Fluttershy visited was using a barter system in which she was taken advantage of, so ponies are not treated equal in financial matters.

Sorry, this doesn't really help your argument, but at least it gives you some ideas of what arguments someone could bring up. Good luck with your thesis :smilepony:

 

[Pinkie]

I have to disagree. While the show definitely promotes and teaches people morals and lessons about friendship, their society does face challenges that seem to reoccur in episodes. First thing to keep in mind is that the set up of their society is a monarchy, which history has shown to be problematic and not socially equal. There are different classes of social status, which has been shown in episodes to be discriminatory in some of the ponies' eyes. The different types of ponies gives them all different roles in their society but it also sets them all apart and there is some discrimination on who has magic and who can fly. While their cutiemark talents make each pony special, it also gives them a reason for jealousy, especially when some ponies get their cutiemarks early and other are late bloomers. There is also no guarantee that a pony will keep their property as Applejack's family was almost bought out for their slower cider production and lack of "technology/magic." The market that Fluttershy visited was using a barter system in which she was taken advantage of, so ponies are not treated equal in financial matters.

Sorry, this doesn't really help your argument, but at least it gives you some ideas of what arguments someone could bring up. Good luck with your thesis :smilepony:

No, no! Arguements are just as good as agreeing statements because I can use them as examples of opposing views.

 

[Angel_Foil]

Ah, a place to list my issues with Celestia

In all seriousness, though, I don't think she's the greatest leader, and the society she runs is not perfectly utopian by a long shot.
1. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." History has shown this, and yet Celestia has been in sole power since Luna became Nightmare Moon. Be warned, ponies. I'm not saying the show will make this happen, but theoretically it could. To expand on this topic: a) following Luna's return, she was not given her equal position with Celestia back. In addition, she remained smaller and weaker. b) who the heck is Cadence, and where does she come from? If she's an alicorn as well why does she wield no apparent power, and associate with common unicorns as a child? I've concluded that Celestia is basically hogging the power here.
2. Like dragonkiss said, there is a clear division of classes. I think it can be seen especially in Canterlot vs. Ponyville. The Canterlot ponies treat Ponyville ponies like dirt.
3. Although it isn't officially stated, Celestia seems to be pretty much dictator for life. But woah there, she's immortal. So Celestia = dictator for life + immortal? Not equal opportunity at all.
4. Equestria seems to be a capitalist society, like dragonkiss's examples of Fluttershy's day at the market and Flim and Flam nearly buying Sweet Apple Acres.
5. Another way ponies aren't equal is the fact that Equestria is quite obviously a female-dominated society. As far as we know, there are no male alicorns; the highest rank for a stallion we've seen to date is unicorn princes (Blueblood and Shining Armor), and even the mayor of Ponyville is female. Applejack runs Sweet Apple Acres, not Big Mac, and Rarity is an entrepreneur as well. Rainbow Dash holds a job, as does Pinkie Pie, (whether you consider it a job or an apprenticeship; that's not quite clear) and Twilight is receiving what is arguably the highest education in all of Equestria.
6. There is most certainly not peace in Equestria. Obviously.

That being said, the Mane 6 definitely embody equality, fairness, respect, etc., but in my opinion, Equestria on a whole does not, and a lot of episodes, such as Sweet and Elite, seem to show the Mane 6 facing that.

*gets off soapbox*

Good luck with your paper, Pinkie! Post it when you're done so we can read it . I almost wrote a paper myself there, concession and all. Gosh, I'm chatty today.

:ETA: If you choose to use any of our responses, make sure you cite them. The last thing you want is to be penalized for plagiarism because the ideas you write aren't yours. There was an issue with plagiarism in my sophomore history class, with people reading something online and using the ideas in their essays. They were in huge trouble, and I wouldn't want to see that happen to you.

 

[Pinkie]

Ah, a place to list my issues with Celestia

In all seriousness, though, I don't think she's the greatest leader, and the society she runs is not perfectly utopian by a long shot.
1. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." History has shown this, and yet Celestia has been in sole power since Luna became Nightmare Moon. Be warned, ponies. I'm not saying the show will make this happen, but theoretically it could. To expand on this topic: a) following Luna's return, she was not given her equal position with Celestia back. In addition, she remained smaller and weaker. b) who the heck is Cadence, and where does she come from? If she's an alicorn as well why does she wield no apparent power, and associate with common unicorns as a child? I've concluded that Celestia is basically hogging the power here.
2. Like dragonkiss said, there is a clear division of classes. I think it can be seen especially in Canterlot vs. Ponyville. The Canterlot ponies treat Ponyville ponies like dirt.
3. Although it isn't officially stated, Celestia seems to be pretty much dictator for life. But woah there, she's immortal. So Celestia = dictator for life + immortal? Not equal opportunity at all.
4. Equestria seems to be a capitalist society, like dragonkiss's examples of Fluttershy's day at the market and Flim and Flam nearly buying Sweet Apple Acres.
5. Another way ponies aren't equal is the fact that Equestria is quite obviously a female-dominated society. As far as we know, there are no male alicorns; the highest rank for a stallion we've seen to date is unicorn princes (Blueblood and Shining Armor), and even the mayor of Ponyville is female. Applejack runs Sweet Apple Acres, not Big Mac, and Rarity is an entrepreneur as well. Rainbow Dash holds a job, as does Pinkie Pie, (whether you consider it a job or an apprenticeship; that's not quite clear) and Twilight is receiving what is arguably the highest education in all of Equestria.
6. There is most certainly not peace in Equestria. Obviously.

That being said, the Mane 6 definitely embody equality, fairness, respect, etc., but in my opinion, Equestria on a whole does not, and a lot of episodes, such as Sweet and Elite, seem to show the Mane 6 facing that.

*gets off soapbox*

Good luck with your paper, Pinkie! I almost wrote a paper myself there, concession and all. Gosh, I'm chatty today.

I did touch on that Canterlot/Ponyville thing and social classes. I also touched on your nod to feminism and I have written about Celestia's role with the other princesses as a whole, but not her direct influence on anything yet. What I have written so far:

My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic demonstrates philosophical ideas of the perfect utopian society. In many ways, “Equestriaâ€, the home of the ponies, can be compared to Plato’s Republic and other philosophical writings. The program presents a world in which the normative position is female. The characters do not have the sexist stereotype of passive personalities, and their relationships with males are mostly centered on friendship. Gender representation has been the subject of debates since the launch of the toy line in 1982. Many feminists have argued that the show is smart-shaming, racist, and demonstrates and encourages stereotypical gender roles. I disagree, in fact, it is quite the opposite. In many cases the show empowers and encourages feministic ideals by establishing characters that defy stereotypical gender roles. The rulers are all female, showing children that women can obtain high political status and be just as successful as men. Socrates proposed the same ideal in which women make potential good leaders or rulers and sees no reason why women should not have status equal to men.

Plato touches on Socrates’ view on female rulers in his fifth book. Plato’s Republic, Kallipolis, is divided into a system of classes. The Guardians are the governing class, whom are devoted to serving the interests of the community. In My Little Pony, this directly relates to the princesses, Twilight, Luna, Cadence, and Celestia, whom each possess a different role in their governing. Plato believes that women’s intelligence and reason should be called upon in the running of the state. In book 5, Plato discusses his views of equality among men and women. He does not want to classify the woman’s role as inferior to that of man. He argues that just because the women’s bodies are made differently does not necessarily make them different from and inferior to men. In fact, Plato states that women are capable of being equal to the best of men if not superior. In theory, the best state must give women the opportunity to govern. This chance should not be withheld upon women on the basis of gender alone. Plato’s governing class divides the Guardians into two classes. The first, he named the Auxiliaries, assist and serve the rulers of the state and function similar to a military. The second class is composed of those select few who, through years of trials judging their abilities to lead, demonstrate the ideal qualities to rule.

Princess Twilight Sparkle is a good example in relation to Plato’s ideal of choosing a worthy ruler based on the capabilities they demonstrate while trialed when considered for the position of Guardian. As a student under the mentorship of Princess Celestia, Twilight learns and develops skills previously unthought-of. She exceeds expectations by surpassing the successes of peers and accomplishing tasks known to be physically impossible. Celestia sends Twilight to the small lower-class town of Ponyville outside of her residence in Canterlot, home of the wealthy and powerful. Her task is to continue her studies in magic, incorporating the powerful magic of friendship by establishing relationships with others. Through in act of heroics, Twilight helps her friends rediscover their destinies when their “cutie marksâ€, or marks of destiny, were switched in her attempt of finishing a great wizard’s unfinished spell. By helping her friends rediscover their true destinies, she has an epiphany and finishes the spell using the strength of their relationships with each other to make their destinies one. In her words, "From all of us together, together we're friends. With the marks of our destinies made one, there is magic without end." Upon casting the spell, she appears with Celestia, whom transforms her into an Alicorn, or winged unicorn, the only beings powerful enough and fit to rule.

Plato believes in equality among individuals, his philosophies ultimately opposing in egalitarianism. he does not believe in equality in social functions. He explicitly adheres to the view that one class of people is presumably superior to other classes. Plato’s views further stress that some individuals are born naturally equipped to rule, others destined to assist them, and others to be ruled. His proposal of this concept entails that there are various different natures that exist in different kinds of souls. To keep people content with their role and status in society, Plato creates the “Myth of the Metalsâ€, claiming that citizens are somewhat literally born from the earth of their nation. By the “Myth of the Metalsâ€, people’s souls contain an essence of a metal, in which determines their role in their society. Those born with iron or bronze souls are destined to work in the producing classes. Those with souls of silver and gold will make up the Auxiliaries and Guardians. To establish and maintain balance in their society, they must fulfill these destinies.

 

[Desert_Rose]

I have to disagree. While the show definitely promotes and teaches people morals and lessons about friendship, their society does face challenges that seem to reoccur in episodes. First thing to keep in mind is that the set up of their society is a monarchy, which history has shown to be problematic and not socially equal. There are different classes of social status, which has been shown in episodes to be discriminatory in some of the ponies' eyes. The different types of ponies gives them all different roles in their society but it also sets them all apart and there is some discrimination on who has magic and who can fly. While their cutiemark talents make each pony special, it also gives them a reason for jealousy, especially when some ponies get their cutiemarks early and other are late bloomers. There is also no guarantee that a pony will keep their property as Applejack's family was almost bought out for their slower cider production and lack of "technology/magic." The market that Fluttershy visited was using a barter system in which she was taken advantage of, so ponies are not treated equal in financial matters.

Sorry, this doesn't really help your argument, but at least it gives you some ideas of what arguments someone could bring up. Good luck with your thesis :smilepony:

Uhm I just have to jump in on this and say that many countries today in Europe have a monarchy, Sweden does, and it is working perfectly fine (granted, they don't have all the power like in the old days, but nevertheless we have monarchys). So I really can't see why that would be an issue

As for the question at hand, no I don't think it's a Utopia. But as stated before it does have a basic teaching of be good to others which would benefit our world very much indeed IF people actually botherd to live by it.
We would for sure have a much nicer society if people tried to adapt these teachings but it still wouldn't be perfect. Mainly because people (and the ponies) are very different, that means different opinions on things and different opinions on things means there will be disputes at some point. Which we can see in the show aswell.

Not sure if that helps much, but it's 1am here so that's the best I've got at this hour XD

 

[LadyM]

Hmmm . . . It has some aspects of a utopian society. Celestia is a benevolent "mom" type of ruler, for example. Everyone finds their perfect job and place in society; even Turnip Top or whatever his name is apparently enjoys cleaning windows.

However, it's not a total utopia. Aside from monsters running around, there are also societal issues. For example, Applejack is desperate to earn money to fix Granny Smith's bad hip . . . Apparently if you are a poor pony and have health problems, then too bad for you, no one is going to help you.

Generally I think you have a strong argument for tying it in with Plato, though.

 

[dragonkiss207]

Uhm I just have to jump in on this and say that many countries today in Europe have a monarchy, Sweden does, and it is working perfectly fine (granted, they don't have all the power like in the old days, but nevertheless we have monarchys). So I really can't see why that would be an issue

Oh yes Desert Rose, I agree with you! I was referring to the monarchies of olden days when all power was strictly given to one ruler. Sorry for not specifying. I personally like the ideas of socialism, but that has yet to work as a utopia since humans are so easily corruptible.

Pinkie, the thesis is sounding good!

 

[Phekzhen]

Taking responses from people in a forum and using them as sources in an academic paper is, well, pretty weak. There's already several essays out there about Plato's utopia and Equestria; they would make much better source material than ours.

Saying Equestria is a utopia is a ridiculous notion. A utopia is a perfect society without anything bad in it. But with evil magic users like Trixie, evil magical creatures like dragons and draconequii and dangerous animals like parasprites shows that society isn't perfect.

****, in the first minute of the first episode we see that the "equal" division of power between Luna and Celestia is not equal at all, with the ensuant normal emotions causing a god-king to turn into a maleficent powerful being. The only way to stop Nightmare Moon is with the 6-pack McGuffins, which Celestia couldn't use (because Luna/tia were the old weilders?). Celestia only had the power to quell NMM's power for a short while, not to actually stop her. If Twilight, say, fell off the cliff and died, it would have been endless night for us all.

So either Celestia put the fate of the entire planet in the hands of a pack of emotionally-stunted adults or she's an omniscent being who's just too lazy to do the work herself.

 

[Pinkie]

Taking responses from people in a forum and using them as sources in an academic paper is, well, pretty weak. There's already several essays out there about Plato's utopia and Equestria; they would make much better source material than ours.

Saying Equestria is a utopia is a ridiculous notion. A utopia is a perfect society without anything bad in it. But with evil magic users like Trixie, evil magical creatures like dragons and draconequii and dangerous animals like parasprites shows that society isn't perfect.

****, in the first minute of the first episode we see that the "equal" division of power between Luna and Celestia is not equal at all, with the ensuant normal emotions causing a god-king to turn into a maleficent powerful being. The only way to stop Nightmare Moon is with the 6-pack McGuffins, which Celestia couldn't use (because Luna/tia were the old weilders?). Celestia only had the power to quell NMM's power for a short while, not to actually stop her. If Twilight, say, fell off the cliff and died, it would have been endless night for us all.

So either Celestia put the fate of the entire planet in the hands of a pack of emotionally-stunted adults or she's an omniscent being who's just too lazy to do the work herself.

A utopia by Socrates and Plato, and I was told to conduct a survey, so...
I'm just doing an assignment for 11th grade English class. Yes there is conflict to establish a storyline, but the general composition of classes and government is similar to Plato's republic and other utopias. If a society was perfect, is it really? Like, how do we define perfect? We have to compare it to the philosophy not the government we see in our lives and our ideal systems.

EDIT: something I stumbled upon during my research on MLB. Not at all useful or important, just kind of cool it's a shared idea.

 

[Dava]

If you're drawing off Plato, Equestria is at the end stage of the cycle Plato proposed. It is a tyranny. Citizens are fortunate to have a benevolent tyrant in Celestia, but she is neither chosen by those she rules, nor is there any limit on her office. Social mobility also is limited. The divisions between earth pony, unicorn, and pegasus is a caste system.

 

[HighFlyer]

Hi Pinkie, I'm not into G4 and since I don't have TV I have never actually seen FiM (shame), but the way you describe their society you might find reverences in E. Spenser's The Faerie Queene, an alligorical epic poem about a fairytale (utopian?) world ruled by a Fairy Queen (Gloriana, but really an allegoric alter-ego of the historical Elisabeth I) and protected by her brave knights. The six virtues are very important here (for example: there are six books and in every book a different knight has to solve a quest (so you could say there even is a Mane Six, allthough other knights do appear, like Arthur, who is the embodiment of all the six virtues).
Reading the whole epos would be a little too complex and time consuming for your paper I think, but maybe for another time?